Thursday, May 17, 2007

Circle The Wagons

Here's the situation. Early in an MTT Jordan played 88 in position very aggressively vs Waffles AQ in the Big Blind.. Waffles hit an ace on the flop, but Jordan thought he could push Waffles off a weak ace so he continued his aggression. Waffles knew he was ahead in the hand so he slow played a pair of aces with a queen kicker. They got all in on the turn when Jordan made an outside straight draw, Jordan hit an 8 on the river to win the hand.

Level 1 thinking: They both misplayed the hand. Jordan overplayed his 88. Waffles slow played a very vulnerable hand out of position.

Level 2 thinking: Waffles knew he had the best hand and wanted to double up. He made a good read and was willing to take the risk that his hand, while ahead, was vulnerable. Jordan read that Waffles had an ace and was ahead but would fold to some very strong plays. He got pot stuck and had to make a tough call.

Waffles stuck around the table for a long time calling Jordan a moron. Waffles made a post calling Jordan a moron. Jordan replied in a post saying his play wasn't so bad, and Waffles' play was just as poor.

Here's the comments so far by Miami Donk:

Great post. I'm totally amazed at how shallow most of our blogging friends view poker hands and situations. It's pointless to try and help them Waffles, you can't teach a closed mind.

You get all your chips in at 80% and you're the donkey that misplayed the hand?

and from his blog:
I'm not going to get into detail here today although I will attack the subject in some later posts but I'm really amazed lately by so many posts and comments on those posts about select hands and they way they are played from both perpectives. What I mean is I'm surprised at so much shallow thinking and IMO how players don't see the depth of poker and really how wrong their thinking can be at times.
My My how Donk likes to circle the wagons around his friend Waffles.

Here's Donk's example of how "not slowplaying" is wrong:
I have AK and raise preflop and get called by say one of the blinds with 44. Flop comes A94 but two suited, they check their set, I C-bet, and they overbet check raise me and I fold. I usually thank them for saving me money and I like asking why they bet me off the hand and the answer is most always, "well there was a flush draw out there." Whatever, we're HU, slow play and get all my chips.
But....But....Donk! You had the magic pair of aces with a big kicker! Why weren't you slow playing? You had your opponent at a FOR-SURE 80% advantage!

Donk's example gives away his true feelings about the subject. Aces with a big kicker is NOT an incredibly strong hand that is invulnerable to suckouts.

Look I don't have a problem with the way either player played his hand. I admire them both. They made a read, they played VERY aggressively based on those reads. Good, but risky poker. Many people advocate an aggressive risky style at the beginning of MTTs. Get a big stack or go home.

What I have a problem with is the insult fest that follows. Waffles gets free reign to call someone a moron for playing too aggressively, when slow playing a vulnerable hand is a VERY AGGRESSIVE play. He goes on and on about how he wants to play a risky game like check raising pot committed opponents with his vulnerable hand, but then thinks he is giving Jordan good advice about being "too aggressive." Pot? Meet Kettle.

Stop the insult fest that follows every time you get out-drawn in a tournament that you play this way Waffles. You know Jordan is not a moron, stop "pretending to help" as an excuse for calling someone stupid.

And Donk? When you say things like "What I mean is I'm surprised at so much shallow thinking and IMO how players don't see the depth of poker," your claims of intellectual superiority are very hollow. Do yourself a favor and just shut up.

Edit: Just in case you think I'm being too hard on Waffles for his treatment of Jordan after the play, here's a list of the comments Waffles has made at Jordan that are at best criticisms, at worst insults:

"Jordon" (Not sure if it is an insult or just general lack of respect)
"High on Himself"
"Jordon telegraphed his weakness as he often does"
"Instead of pissing away my lead like Jordon decided to do"
"I found Jordon Junior today. He was so cute."
"I am really sick of hearing about how bad you do online.. maybe there is a reason? Idiot."
"I predict Jordon makes it no further than 25th tonight. Easy prediction because he likes to get himself in trouble with crappy play."
"I guess I gave you more credit than you deserve."
"Just reading your comments has made me dumber."
"You so fucking clueless it isnt even funny."


Bloody P said...


JL514 said...

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