Tuesday, May 30, 2006

The WPBT is NOT Schrodinger's Cat

Last week I was lucky enough to be in the offices of the WPBT, and I dropped in on the current President/CEO to ask him about the state of affairs. He seemed very upset and under a large amount of stress, probably caused by the fact that THE WPBT DOESN'T EXIST, NOR IS THERE A PRESIDENT/CEO.

Schrodingers CatThe WPBT was created as a joke name for a bunch of goofballs who wanted to get together and throw some cards around, exchange an insignificant amount of cash, and most of all try to put each other on tilt by dropping the hammer as much as possible. The overall consensus was that the point of the WPBT events was to HAVE FUN. PERIOD.

As with any organized or disorganized event, there are people that are unhappy with the way things are organized, or unhappy with the lack thereof. But the overall theme, that these were NOT SERIOUS POKER GAMES was almost universally agreed upon.

But the saying is true, you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Somebody must have decided that people were not taking the WPBT games seriously enough. Maybe they had the hammer dropped on them one too many times by someone who didn't give a shit if they got knocked out on the first hand. (I plead guilty your honor!)

So they decided that they would start tracking the results of the WPBT games, awarding points to those who finish high in the events. As far as I know there is no prize associated with this "Player of the Year" tracking, but the assumption seems to be that if people are being tracked and the results are displayed publicly, the players would start playing more seriously. Some people seem to care about POY standings, some don't.

So you have a situation where some players in the field are playing seriously, while others are just having fun, playing wilty-tilty. The serious players try to ruin it for the fun-lovers, and the crazy/tilters are trying to ruin it for the Serious Sams/Samanthas. Just what you want in a poker event, isn't it?

What's worse is that POY points are not just awarded for WPBT events. They have been available for other tournaments, like the DADI events. But not all DADI events. What determines if another tournament like a DADI qualifies for POY point status? Nobody knows. It seems dependent upon whether the person who organizes the POY standings is available to play in the DADI event.


NeverBluff said...

I got your WPBT right here in my Levi's. And nope, it's all 100% Grade A True American beef LOLLOL!!

TripJax said...

We asked Byron if he would like DADI to be a part of the WPBT points for that one event since it was for a WSoP seat. It seemed like the thing to do at the time and I think it worked out well. The WPBT and DADI are not competition for each other and I hope it showed during that event.

That said, we mutually decided not to involve DADI with WPBT points going forward as we just didn't see the need.

You make a good point in your post...

It's not worth taking any of this stuff seriously. We are amateur poker players. We are ameteur writers. When it's no longer fun, it's done. I enjoy the WPBT events and I don't mind the POY points, though I don't care if I'm 1st or last. It's not about the points. Hopefully everyone can see it is ridiculous to take any of this too seriously.

Neverbluff is my hero. Go Champ!

biggestron said...

Wow dude, sorry to dissapoint you by making the effort to set up a bimonthly series of events for WPBT'ers to play in. I like the WPBT as a loosely organized group, but your continued negative attitude about it fucking sucks. The WPBT as a group is exactly what I like - a mix of good players and really fun people. It must be burden for you to know that the WPBT-POY points system is on my page and mirrored at the wpbt.info site. I admire how you are holding up under such pressure, only cracking with the occasional insane post, such as this one.

To add to what Trip said - points were given for the wsop sats that Iggy set up (2), and this was done after a discussion with Iggy. The guidelines for the point system were discussed in advance through comments and over IRC with anyone who cared to join in and are listed on the POY points page. If you are too damn lazy to read or contribute to them, that is your problem.

biggestron said...

And I've played in almost every DADI event - get your facts straight before you go ranting.

ToddCommish said...

Oh great, now online poker is the equivalent of boxing's alphabet soup. The WPBT, DADI, FWALG, G-Vegas tours will all have their own championship belts and declare their own champs.

DuggleBogey said...

Wow dude, sorry to dissapoint you by making the effort to set up a bimonthly series of events for WPBT'ers to play in.

It must be burden for you to know that the WPBT-POY points system is on my page and mirrored at the wpbt.info site.

I don't mind your effort to set up events. But I don't think that's why you're doing it.

What I mind is your effort to control how people play in what started out as fun events by adding this "POY" scheme.

I don't care if the POY points is on your page. I care about the attempt you are making with it to try and force people to play more seriously as if they mean anything.

So the POY leader gets nothing except bragging rights? He can brag about playing seriously in a tournament that half the other players weren't? Not if you get your way, and more people start taking them seriously. Which would ruin them, IMO.

There are tons of serious poker tournaments at every level every day. Why try to make these the same, when they used to be so much more?

biggestron said...

In no way am I trying to force people to play 'seriously'. Duggle, you've barely even spoken with me and you claim to know 'my way'? Apart from one post where I used a play by Kat as a starting point for tourney play in online events *in general*, I've never complained about the play in blogger events. I like them - a lot. They are filled with fun people and serious players. The blogger-only tournies were one of the reasons that I made the jump from reader to active blogger. You, and some others, misconstrued the post and started a moronic argument. People can play how they want. I started the POY scheme because I've enjoyed following people on similar ladders and wanted to add it to the WPBT group, where I can follow people who I know and like. And bragging seriously? Come on. There is a prize for 72nd place. Take off your tinfoil hat - I'm not the Man.

Felicia :) said...

Jeez, I was just sure this post was all about me!

I was going to whine that you were picking on me again.

Now I see it's all about champ and biggie, dang!

DuggleBogey said...

You're right that I'm assuming a lot by accusing you of trying to control people's behavior.

But I cannot see any other purpose to it. Like you said it's a lot of effort, and since there's no other reason I can think of that anyone would go through all that work.

Especially since you have vented your frustration with how people like Kat aren't playing seriously, you exposed how you really feel.

Maybe I'm reading way too much into these facts, but they seem to make your motivations seem obvious. If I'm wrong, I take it back 100%.

But I really don't think I'm wrong, because I cannot come up with any other plausible explanation for your actions. The "I wanted to follow how people did in these events, just for myself" doesn't wash with me.

biggestron said...

It is amazing that you still miss the point of that posting. I know people are going to play like uber-donkeys in the WPBT events - it is part of the fun. My post was about my experience in other (ie open entry, decent prize-pool stakes events), supposedly serious, tourney situations. It was a bitching, to be sure, but it came of the frustration from playing a game that allows stupidity to be paid off. I know that I am not alone in this opinion, but it is my own fault for making the choice to gamble in the first place. Let us put that one aside for good, ok?

You assume too much when you think there is a lot of hard work involved in the WPBT-POY system. Just know that to someone with the right skill set, what looks complicated to others is actually pretty easy to do. The work involved in tracking the results is now fairly minimal. I've written a series of programs that I run on system that hosts my site and it is simply a matter of feeding it the downloaded pokerstars or fulltilt tourney results list. There was obviously some work in setting the system up, but I *like* doing stuff like that - manipulating data with computer programs is one of the more enjoyable parts of my chosen profession. The fact that I do it for free is evidence of that. So that is and was my entire motivation - enjoyment. Maybe selfish, but certainly not in a way that hurts other people. I know that others enjoy having the POY points system in place, I've been told as much by dozens of WPBT'ers.

I accept your apology if it is indeed sincere (cf 'I take it back 100%'). If it wasn't and you still think I have some ulterior designs on the semi-ficticious and entirely unofficious group known as the WPBT, then I feel sorry for you - because that means that you, sir, do not get it.

DuggleBogey said...

Then why all the hassle over "This event deserves to get points and that event doesn't deserve to get points?"

If you are just wanting to follow how everyone plays, shouldn't every event that involves more than a dozen bloggers be included?

I know at least one person who was pissed off because an event wasn't included in the POY points.

That seems like conclusive proof to me that this system that you have created "just because you enjoy manipulating data" is making people take these things much more seriously than they deserve to be taken.

Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that seems to be the result.

biggestron said...

Sigh. I really think that you are just baiting me now. I didn't say "just because you (I) enjoy manipulating data", so don't misquote me. The original statement is there - have a second look.

So why don't I follow every event? Because that *would* be a lot of work. If someone wants to start tracking every private tourney, please, feel free. We have over a 100 people who have played in the various POY events and get 50-60 people on a regular basis for the Sunday events. That, to me, is a comfortable size for a group. The DADI event was a one time thing because it was WSOP/blogger related, just like Iggy's tournies. We considered including it permenantly, but dropped the idea, as Trip said. As it stands, the events that I schedule on a bimonthly timetable (and I'm open to suggestions on which games we play) and the live WPBT events are the only ones that count for points in the system. The mookie, the wwdn, and the DADI (am I forgetting anyone?) are all open events - by keeping the system to blogger events only I limit the people I have to track and thus the extra work I have to put in. At this point the extra work is data entry (ie noting Stars/Full Tilt id differences and blogsites) - and that is not very challenging or fun.
The time for WPBT-POY games is was decided by two polls and is set: every other Sunday (holidays and DADI collisions notwithstanding) at 9 or 9:30 Eastern time. I keep a calendar on my site (upper right) if you want a long range schedule. If you want to play, make time in your life. If not, then don't play - I won't be offended. There is purposefully no prizes promised because I don't want to attract jerk-offs looking for a payday. I don't like people like that, and I refuse to use my time to enable their interests.
If someone was pissed off because they played a game that was not advertised as a POY game and did not give them POY points, then they are just angry at something else and using the POY system as a scapegoat.

DuggleBogey said...

If someone was pissed off because they played a game that was not advertised as a POY game and did not give them POY points, then they are just angry at something else and using the POY system as a scapegoat.

This person was upset before the event even took place. The difference between this event and others are totally indistinguishable, at least to him. Since the single deciding factor seems to be your opinion, I can't find fault with his reasoning.

biggestron said...

Well then I'm sorry for the poor soul's confusion and consternation. When I say 'discussion with xxx' that means my opinion certainly does matter, as does that of 'xxx'. I'm not going to put every single decision to a vote - that would smack of a real organization which you point out correctly that we are not (and as an aside, Schrodinger postulated a real cat, it was a matter of whether the cat was alive or dead [and actually it was simultaneously alive and dead] that illustrated his point on quantuum mechanics wave theory - most popular science writers get this story wrong). If the unknown person or people are unhappy because there aren't enough POY events, know that there is an equal number of people who would be unhappy with too many POY events. I'll err on the side of not enough, since anyone who needs to scratch a poker itch can find it anytime they want these days.

Guin said...

Duggle... the blogger events that have POY points seem to be just a full of hammer dropping and fun chat as non POY events.

I personally like the POY idea and think biggestron does a great job sorting all of the data for us. Having a record of our results is a good thing and hopefully people can have fun and also attempt to improve as players.

Donkeypuncher said...

All I care about is Biggie's use of brackets and parens. Top notch.

I don't let POY determine if I join an event. It's strictly an availability issue - I'll play if I have time [and because I enjoy hammer dropping and the (semi)witty banter]. I like the idea of POY - but it's more of a novelty thing to me than a trophy. Kind like having a 300lb stripper. Only there for entertainment purposes...

CJ said...

Get over yourself...

The WPBT events are fun... I'd kinda like them to be earlier in the evening (nudge, nudge), but that's no big deal.

I don't think there's one there... but who the fuck cares if there was an alterior motive? Don't play if it bothers you that much!